CUBAN INFORMATION ARCHIVES



DOCUMENT  0027-6


[ Main Site Menu ] [ Back to Nassau Introduction | JFK Menu ] [ Index to Site Documents ]
TRANSCRIPT of PROCEEDINGS
between
CUBAN OFFICIALS  and JFK HISTORIANS
TAPE 6 of 8
NASSAU BEACH HOTEL
7/9 DECEMBER 1995

NASSAU TAPE # 6

?____________: And that is my question to you. Have you considered the possible involvement of other forces besides American?

Escalante: I don't know. Obviously, apparently after any, the assassination, the plans change. I don't know why, but that's what happened. I can't make political judgments. I don't know
whether.....something turned out bad. I always thought OSWALD was condemned to death after the assassination.

?____________: After?

Escalante: Before and after.. (Some laughter) OSWALD was the king. And OSWALD was practically
king for about forty-eight hours. There is no other solution except to be killed by Jack Ruby. This
could not have been planned. The thought that someone could have contemplated Jack Ruby to come
and kill him... that's crazy. It was a very extreme act. Actually what I think is, the most probably thing,
is that OSWALD was supposed to die immediately after Kennedy's assassination. If this had
happened, what would have happened?

?____________: Cuba would have gotten blamed. I think the lone assassin idea was already planted
before OSWALD was dead.

Smith: The OSWALD thing would exclude that. If OSWALD was supposed to die immediately after
the assassination, they had to blame him, he's the assassin. And blame those in Cuba because of the
earlier...And maybe they wouldn't have, but that was the plan.

?____________: What do you think it would have mattered if the Cuban consulate had approved
Oswald's visa?

Escalante: He would have been a couple days, three days maybe, and then back to Mexico. The
circle....... This afternoon we are going to speak about that..

?____________: Let's try to close this off at 1:15, if that's okay with everyone.

Escalante: Before finishing today, I would like to say something. I have spoken very freely today. It
has been taped. I have told you all of these things have been discovered in a book which is to be
published. Keep all of this in mind when you handle this information. We explained things. We are
going to a meeting, not for books. We thought in a small circle like this, knowing most of you, we could
talk freely as we have done. I ask you beforehand to be very careful with the information I have given
you from our book.

?____________: When will your book be published?

Escalante: Early next year.

Smith: Let me simply repeat something I said as we began. And that is that, it is perfectly okay to
film, but he would like to view before you do anything with it publicly. Anything with the film, he would
like to see. And also, I think he would appreciate it if any of you that are taping, would send copies of
the tapes, That would be very useful to him and his memory in going ahead with the book. I think it
would be the gentlemanly thing to do. Is this correct?

Escalante: Yes.

Smith: So, you can either get the address and send direct. Or, if you wish, I can be the central point
and make sure they all get to him. However you want to do it, that's okay with me. So let's take a
couple more questions and then we'll break for lunch.

?____________: I'm confused about one thing. Mr. Escalante says no ____________? did go
through.... On November 27th, he went to Cuba from Mexico City. The strange thing is the
Assassinations Committee concluded that the flight didn't take place. For some reason they didn't
want to get into this point but they also said that the gentleman skipped customs.

Escalante: (Interpreter) Sorry, it's too fast. I need time...

?____________: That's okay. Well anyway.....You said that LOPEZ did go to Mexico on the 27th.

Escalante: Yes (nodding head up and down)

?____________: The funny thing is that the Assassinations Committee, they concluded that the flight,
this incident did not take place. For some reason they wanted to sweep it under the rug. But the
original report says this man, he didn't go through customs. And he was the only one on the Cubana
plane and he went straight to Cuba without going through customs. Is that true?

Escalante: It wasn't possible. Mexico was our only way out. The only port we could go out. The FBI
had taken so many measures, that it was absolutely impossible to go without going through customs or
the Mexican police.

????? He got to Mexico. And asked at the Cuban Embassy to travel to Cuba.. He was in a hotel in
Mexico. I don't remember the 27th. It was a regular Cubana flight ___________? He got on the
flight...... and got to Cuba. And the flight was very much delayed. And it was late on the 27th. Because
it got.... Anyone who has traveled to Cuba, know it is late. Our friends are always late.. It's the truth.
In those days we had British Air... We didn't have the money to buy the spare parts. Always late.
(Short exchange between Nunez and Escalante) Every time a Cuban would get to Mexico, they would
make you sit there and take a photograph of you.

Nunez: There was somebody there. To say, you're a Cuban, put her there. I went once with a
photographer. We were traveling together. She was this girl. She was so angry. She was very young.
Seventeen or eighteen. Her first trip. And we went into the airport and a man came up and said you're
Cuban and I am going to take your photo. And she said, I'm going to take one of you too. She was so
angry. So this was very different. So it is very difficult to go out, through, without customs.

Smith: Just to take thirty seconds. I was with the first group of American diplomats to return to Cuba
in 1977. April. And I was left behind with one other fellow. The group returned to the United States.
And we were going to go out and talk to some American prisoners. So we stayed behind and we flew
out through Mexico. Our charter plane left, so we flew out through Mexico. Of course, at that point,
the Mexican police were not at all nice to Americans, especially American officials, traveling from
Cuba. So as soon as we arrived in Mexico, we also faced the cameras until a protocol officer came
over and said, "that's not necessary." Of course, maybe the CIA was there with another camera.
(laughter)

?____________: I have always thought from my work and my analysis, that as pertinent as
discussions are of involvement of the anti-Castro exiles and /or even the CIA operatives, or the Texas
oil interests who may have put money forward...that all of this is still a discussion of the mechanical
level of the assassination. That level on which the assassination was authorized or planned - similarly
to the mafia. But this doesn't mean this is....But my analysis has always been that these were the
figures of the assassination. And I think this information being given to the anti-Castro community
about Kennedy's plans to normalize relations, may have been done very deliberately in order to
involve them, and others, for their own motives at this mechanical level. So that these various groups
could have time to take credit for the killing and later, if necessary, take individual blame. And I've
discussed a little bit privately with Fabian and the other Cubans, information I have collected over the
years. Mostly anecdotal, from people in the military. A little bit written in books, in public forums,
about what appears to be a plan in action on the day of November 22 an invasion of Cuba and
assassination of Fidel. Which I think indicates that this plan we are talking about is phase I, was
probably canceled or superseded by phase II. In other words, in my view, these would have been
posing elements. And I have other indications that the response capability of the government and the
whole military that day to any sort of military reaction against the Soviet Union was completely
disarmed at the highest level. No communication possible, no code books aboard the planes, the black
box outside presidential control, nuclear command. It was effectively a coup that disarmed the military
November 22. But things have always indicated to me that the hand moving was well beyond any
mafia, anti-Castro Cuban, CIA operative could have done. So I just add that.

LUNCH BREAK

Smith: (Talks about missing video equipment [slide projector] and suggests that people might be able
to secure one on the next day to view the slides.)

Scott: I have been talking to Wayne and some other people during the lunch hour. I have been so
excited by the success of these meetings that I hope that they will be resumed at some future point.
And I have made resolutions for this meeting to that effect which would say: Resolved

1) that this group reconvene in about six months or so and

2) that individuals be invited that could throw further
light on US policies and bureaucratic arrangements with
respects to Cuba in 1963.

Now that's the text of the resolution, but in clarification, of individuals who could throw further light,
we are thinking of people, who, by the way, have not been invited, such as Richard Goodwin or
?____________. That's the two points I have.

Smith: Since I've....In as far as the resolutions, we should go through parliamentary procedures here.
Does anyone object to the resolution?

D. Lyman Objects. (laughter)

Smith: Would it be, it's not anything we have to decide here, but would it be feasible to think about
doing it perhaps, the next one in Havana? That might give you some problems. It might be some of
our participants would not be able to, or choose not to, or both, participate in Havana. But it seems to
me it might be logical next step. Would this, I'm not asking you to reach a decision right now, but just
off the top of your head, or heads. Would this seem like an interesting idea?

Escalante: Okay.

Smith: Okay. Good. That's all we need. So we'll go ahead with the resolution and talk to COPA about
it and we'll be in touch with you and the other two officials. The possibility of Havana or not Havana,
or somewhere else. We could do it here again or somewhere else. (Some discussion of potential sites.)

Smith: Any other issues before we get started?

Rodriguez: Colleagues. I know it is not the most appropriate hour for this. We also have this problem,
as we mentioned, that we don't have this projector yet. It would be much easier to make our
explanation. All this information is in pictures and photographs. But I will try to do this as briefly as
possible and try to keep your interest. And try to interest you in spite of this inconvenience. As you
know, better than us, the date of Oswald's visit in Mexico City is full of unknown things. These
unknown things have been the result of because of a lot of acts of disinformation, efforts to hide or
manipulate the evidence and as a consequence of this, we can't quite say anything specific about what
happened. We don't intend to resolve this problem in this forum. We only aspire to clarify part of this
truth. This is in direct relation with the evidence that we are able to provide in relation of the visit of
OSWALD to the Cuban Consulate. The certainty this part of the truth will contribute in some measure
to draw conclusions that have something to do with the rest of the entire truth. In the second place, we
intend to explain the evidence that makes up our estimation that this trip was high, a culminating
phase, of the plan to invade Cuba, and link their country to the assassination. I would like to clarify
some missions that were in operation in Mexico in September of 1963. In September of 1963, the
Cuban Consulate had two General Consuls - Mr. E. AZCUE and Alfredo __________XXXX, both
Cuban citizens of course. AZCUE, at the moment, was turning over his credentials to MIRABAL. He
was assigned by ......AZCUE, afterwards returned to Cuba in Nov 18, 1963. The characteristics of the
building, the consulate. It had an upper floor in which was based personnel of the trade office of their
diplomatic representatives and the bottom floor , that's where the Cuban consul was.

?____________: I didn't understand. On the upper floor was a trade office?

Nunez: There were two buildings.

Rodriguez: It was a separate building. The entrance door to the Consul and the waiting room was
shared by.... The consulate and trade office shared the same entrance. As a result, all the people that
worked there had to pass the waiting room to go to the upper or lower floors. And the consulate....did
not have protected areas against listening devices. Neither had systems of surveillance. that would
have allowed them to see or film people who entered the offices for whatever reason. As you know,
there was a narrow entrance, strict surveillance that was maintained by the CIA station from an
observation point situated in the Francisco Market Street, 149-1, Colonial Con Deso, among others.
Con Deso neighborhood. Their work, Cuban citizens worked there. One passed themselves off
(possibly Columbia). And he called himself CESAR ALBERTO RODRIGUES GUERRO.

Where he worked, they recorded all the conversations that took place in the consulate and in other
places in the embassy. Telephone conversations as well as conversations that took place in the
hallways or offices. In addition they photographed everybody who came in there, including consulate
people and probably people who came to the trade office. In one of the slides we were going to show,
we had a photo of this CIA agent watching. We had a picture of the ALBERTO CESAR. Our
intelligence was able to identify him. We know that there were no less than three, and it seems we
identified one. The other two it was not possible to identify..

?____________: One you knew about at that time, but there were in fact three?

Rodriguez: We are aware there are three from the E. LOPEZ report, but we only identified one. In the
E. LOPEZ document, this part is sensitive. But we are still sure they did exist. The proof of the
existence of these others were handed by the Cuban government to the US House Committee. I would
like to make a comment. We don't know if ALBERTO CESAR is still alive. The last we heard of him
was from the end of the 1970's.

?____________: The committee told me that they had not talked to him, that he was in Spain.

Rodriguez: He directed one of the Berlitz Schools. A cover for the CIA. Since this person, if he does
still live. It would be great to talk to him about these photos and the recordings that haven't shown up.
That we don't know about. Taking together the declarations of the witnesses about Oswald's visit tot
he consulate, so that it is easier to understand and more accessible to understand. The Cuban also
mentioned another woman. A Mexican woman - Silvia DURAN. These people were the staff of the
Cuban consulate in Mexico. These three people, they agree and confirm that the first time that
OSWALD made his presence know, showed up at the Cuban consulate September 27, 1963 in the
morning. That's the first fact, the first time he showed up with AZCUE in the consulate. He couldn't be
categorical about this, but he doubted OSWALD (he) would have been there three times. He said that
it seemed to him, that the third visit took place on the 28th of September, a day that was Saturday. A
day that they wouldn't accept visitors. If they were there, they would be working on internal things. In
the case of MIRABAL, he acknowledges having seen the subject OSWALD on two different
occasions. He was there on 27th and in other of his declarations, he says on these two occasions in
which he see OSWALD, he (OSWALD) discusses things with AZCUE AZCUE says he thinks that
there were three visits. He's not sure. He believes the third one must have happened on Saturday the
28th. He acknowledges before the SELECT COMMITTEE having seen OSWALD on two occasions.
He also says that on the two times he saw him, both were on the 27th. But he also says that on both
times he saw him, he saw OSWALD discussing things with AZCUE. This is important to clarify
exactly how many times OSWALD presented himself to the Cuban consulate and in what dates it
happened. As you'll see real soon, AZCUE has contact with OSWALD because OSWALD is
interested in the 2nd and 3rd visit. As a result you can see that the witness at the second and third
visits because those are the only two occasions that OSWALD talked with AZCUE. The first visit was
only with Silvia DURAN.

Smith: According to AZCUE, there may have been two visits after Silvia DURAN visit.

Rodriguez: And to my opinion, both on the 27th. And the third witness, SILVIA DURAN, says they all
happened on the 27th of September. This is SILVIA DURAN'S testimony and she is the most
trustworthy after which she was interviewed by the Select Committee. SILVIA adds a few.... that the
other witnesses were not able to say. Perhaps they did not ask them with the same zeal to her. She
says that the three visits + 11:00 am, 1:00 pm and between 5:00 and 6:00pm.. We realize that he time
spaces here between the times given by her and the other it is possible to take in to consideration that
in the first visit, OSWALD came to ask for a visa, topic by topic. And Sen. DURAN demanded to see
photos, which is part of the process for the form for the visa. And he went out to get photos near the
consulate. There was a place, a business, where people would get Polaroids. This visit happened at
11:00 in the morning. His visit with DURAN had no reason to meet with AZCUE. He came back in the
afternoon, and that's enough time not only to get photos but also have some lunch. He came before
and then DURAN went over all the documents that she had him sign. But she explained to him that in
spite of filling out this form it was still necessary to have a Soviet visa because he was asking for a
transit visa. As a result he wanted to talk to AZCUE, someone who wasn't a secretary to make sure
this was really necessary to go thru this Soviet process to get this visa. As a result, based on this
situation, AZCUE looked at the documents and came over and said the same thing DURAN had told
him. According to both of them, she thinks that OSWALD left for the Soviet consulate to get a Soviet
visa. The third visit, SILVIA says between five and six in the afternoon, OSWALD comes back and
explains that he now has the Soviet visa but has no official document to prove he does have the Soviet
visa. SILVIA calls the Soviet Consulate. The consulate confirms that yes, OSWALD was there, and
the documents seemed real, but still the visa would take three or four months because they would
have to consult about this with Moscow. SILVIA repeats and explains to OSWALD that he cannot get
a Cuban visa at this time without having the Soviet visa and that the easiest way to do this is to take
into consideration that the membership card in the Communist Party of the US. (grease the wheels to
get the visa).

Scott: Did SILVIA say this to him at some other time or is this a summary of her House committee
testimony?

Rodriguez: This is select committee testimony. (He has a slide) OSWALD answered to SILVIA that
he did not have time to do this. She suggested to him that he change his route. He became more angry
and he insisted to her. When he got so angry, she put him to AZCUE again. This was also an angry
conversation. He was insistent, saying they were a bunch of bureaucrats instead of being
revolutionists, to make him abandon his trip to Cuba.

We have just finished the first topic. OSWALD was there on 3 occasions all on the 27th. It is probably
that it happened according to SILVIA DURAN. One call to the CIA to declassify....

END TAPE 6
Copyright 1998-2014 Cuban Information Archives. All Rights Reserved.